D5大会访谈

原文标题: Interview at the All Things Digital D5 Conference

背景: 2007年5月，在一次罕见的联合采访中，史蒂夫和微软主席比尔·盖茨与记者卡拉·斯威舍和沃尔特·莫斯伯格同台。

主题: "下一个拐角有令人兴奋的东西"

核心概念

  1. 比尔·盖茨 (Bill Gates) - 微软创始人
  2. 苹果 (Apple) - 苹果公司
  3. 微软 (Microsoft) - 微软公司
  4. 卡拉·斯威舍 (Kara Swisher) - 科技记者
  5. 麦金塔 (Macintosh) - Mac电脑
  6. Apple II (Apple II) - 1977年苹果II

内容

中文翻译

卡拉·斯威舍: 我想问的第一个问题是你们各自认为对方对计算机和技术行业做出了什么贡献——从史蒂夫开始对比尔，反之亦然。

史蒂夫·乔布斯: 嗯，比尔建立了行业中第一家软件公司。我认为他在我们行业中几乎任何人，除了这些人，知道软件公司是什么之前就建立了第一家软件公司。那是 huge。那是 really huge。他们最终追求的商业模式结果是 industry 运作得非常好的模式。我认为最大的事情是，比尔在几乎其他任何人都有 clue 那是 really 软件之前就非常专注于软件——

KS: 是重要的？

SJ: 那是我看到的。我是说，很多其他事情你可以说，但那是 high-order bit。我认为建立一家公司 really hard，它需要你最伟大的说服能力来雇佣你能找到的 best people 并让他们留在你的公司，让他们工作，做他们生命中最伟大的工作， hopefully。而比尔这些年能够坚持下来。

沃尔特·莫斯伯格: 比尔，史蒂夫和苹果的贡献怎么样？

比尔·盖茨: 首先，我想澄清：我不是假史蒂夫·乔布斯。史蒂夫做的是相当 phenomenal 的，如果你回顾到1977年，那台苹果II电脑，它将成为大众市场机器的想法，你知道，苹果 uniquely 做的赌注。其他人有产品，但这个想法是这可以是一个令人难以置信的、empowering 的现象——苹果追求那个梦想。然后我们做的最有趣的事情之一是为麦金塔[开发软件]，那是 so risky。人们可能不记得苹果真的赌上了公司。Lisa做得不太好，一些人说那种 general 方法不好，但史蒂夫在公司内建立的团队去追求那个，即使有些日子感觉有点 ahead of its time；我不知道你是否记得那个Twiggy磁盘驱动器和……

SJ: 128K。

KS: 哦，Twiggy磁盘驱动器，是的。

BG: 史蒂夫有一次演讲，是我最喜欢的之一，他谈到，在某种意义上，"我们建造我们想要自己使用的产品。"所以他真的以令人难以置信的品味和优雅追求那个，对行业产生了巨大影响。

而且他总能 come around 并弄清楚下一个赌注应该在哪里的能力是 phenomenal。当史蒂夫回去并重新注入创新和冒险时，苹果 literally 正在失败，这是 phenomenal。所以 industry 从他的工作中受益匪浅。我们俩都很幸运能成为其中的一部分，但我要说他贡献了和任何人一样多。

SJ: 我们也都非常幸运有伟大的合作伙伴，我们一起开始公司，我们吸引了伟大的人。我是说，所以，微软和苹果做的 everything 都是由 remarkable people 做的，none of which 今天坐在这里。

SJ: [当我回到苹果时，]苹果和苹果生态系统中有太多人在玩这个游戏，为了苹果赢，微软必须输。很明显你不必玩那个游戏，因为苹果不会 beat 微软。苹果不必 beat 微软。苹果必须记住苹果是谁，因为他们忘记了苹果是谁。所以，对我来说，打破那个范式是相当 essential 的。而且微软是苹果之外为Mac开发的最大软件开发商也很重要。所以当时发生的事情是 crazy。苹果非常弱，所以我打电话给比尔，我们试图 patch things up。

BG: 从那时起，我们有一个相当致力于做Mac应用的团队，他们总是被 kind of 以独特的方式对待，这样他们可以与苹果有一个相当特殊的关系。那运作得很好。事实上，每隔几年，就有一些我们可以在Mac上做的新东西，这对我们来说是很棒的生意。

SJ: 微软的Mac开发团队和苹果之间的关系是一个很棒的关系。这是我们最好的开发者关系之一。

KS: 你们现在把自己看作对手吗？今天，随着 landscape 的演变——我们会谈论互联网 landscape 和其他一切以及其他[前进]的公司——但你们如何看待今天这个 landscape 中的自己？

WM: 因为，我是说，你们在 certain ways 是竞争对手，这是美国方式，对吧？

KS: 我们看广告，对吧？

WM: 你们时不时互相 annoy。

KS: 虽然，你知道吗？我得承认，我喜欢PC Guy。

WM: 是的，他很棒。

KS: 是的，我喜欢他。那个年轻人，我想 pop 他。

SJ: 那些 commercials 的艺术不是 mean，而是 actually 让 guys 互相喜欢。谢谢。PC guy 很棒。有个大心脏。

BG: 他妈妈爱他。

SJ: 他妈妈爱他。

SJ: 有很多事情发生了，我确信我本可以做得更好，当我在苹果第一次的时候，还有很多我离开后发生的事情，我认为是 wrong turns，但没关系。它 really 没关系，你 kind of 得 let go of that stuff，我们就在 we are。所以我们倾向于向前看。

你知道，我十年前回到苹果时做的一件事是我把博物馆给了斯坦福，所有的文件和所有的旧机器，kind of 清理了蜘蛛网并说，"让我们停止回头看。全是关于明天发生什么。"因为你不能回头看并说，"好吧，天哪，你知道，我希望我没有被解雇，我希望我在那里，我希望这个，我希望那个。"没关系。所以让我们去发明明天而不是担心昨天发生了什么。

KS: 我们要稍微谈谈明天，但让我们谈谈今天，你看待市场中不同玩家的 landscape 以及你如何看待现在正在发展的东西，特别是在互联网空间？

SJ: 我认为现在 super healthy。我认为有很多年轻人在外面建造一些伟大的公司，想要建造公司，不只是有兴趣开始一些东西并卖给一个大公司，而是想要建造公司。我认为有一些 real exciting 的公司在外面建造。一些 next-generation stuff 我们中的一些人 play catch-up with，我们中的一些人找到 ways to partner with，诸如此类。但那里现在有很多活动，你不说吗？

BG: 是的，我要说这是一个 healthy 时期。新 form factors 看起来像什么，自然界面能做什么，使用云、互联网的能力，以 complementary 方式做部分任务到本地体验，有很多 invention 整个 start-ups 的方法，做研究的 existing companies——我们会回顾这作为最伟大的 invention 时期之一。

SJ: 我也这么认为。有很多东西现在很 risky，这总是一个好 sign。你可以看穿它们，你可以看到另一边并说，"是的，这可能是 huge，"但有一段 risk 时期没有人做过。

KS: 你有例子吗？

SJ: 我有，但我不能说。但我可以说：当你感觉那样时，那是很棒的事。那是让你早上来上班的东西，它告诉你下一个拐角有令人兴奋的东西。

WM: 五年后，那个口袋设备上会有什么？

SJ: 我不知道。而我不知道的原因是因为五年前我不会 thought 会有地图在上面，但有些东西 come along，变得非常流行，人们喜欢它，习惯它，你想要它在上面。所以人们不断发明东西，我认为 the art of it 是平衡上面有什么和不在上面——编辑功能。显然，你随身携带的大多数东西是通讯设备。你想用它做一些娱乐，但主要是通讯设备，那就是它们将要成为的。

KS: 史蒂夫？我知道你正在做某事，它将是 beautiful；我们很快就会看到它。

WM: 你不能谈论它。

SJ: 是的。

WM: 比尔讨论他所有的秘密计划。你不讨论任何。

SJ: 我知道，这不公平。但我认为问题是一个非常简单的问题，即未来五年人们要做的 really revolutionary things 有多少是在PC上做的，有多少 really 集中在后PC设备上？有一个 real temptation 把它集中在后PC设备上，因为它是 clean slate，而且它们是更 focused devices，而且它们没有这些必须在 zillions 市场中运行的 zillions apps 的 legacy。

所以我认为后PC设备的 experiences 将有 tremendous revolution。现在，问题是在PC上做多少。而我想——我确信微软是——我们正在做一些 really cool stuff，但其中一些必须 tempered a little bit 因为你 do have，你知道，在我们的情况下 tens of millions，或在比尔的情况下 hundreds of millions 用户熟悉某些东西。你知道，他们不想要六个轮子的车。他们喜欢四个轮子的车。他们不想用 joystick 驾驶。他们喜欢方向盘。

所以，正如比尔所说，在某些情况下你必须 augment 那里存在的东西，在某些情况下你可以替换东西。但我认为 radical rethinking of things 将发生在很多这些后PC设备中。

KS: 你们关系和彼此之间的最大误解是什么？你会说会是什么——这种 catfight 的想法？哪一个 of the many？

SJ: 我们保持我们的婚姻秘密超过十年了。

KS: 加拿大。那次加拿大之旅。[观众笑并鼓掌。]

BG: 我认为我们俩 general 都没有什么可抱怨的。我知道像Mac项目这样的项目只是令人难以置信的事情，fun things 我们在冒险。我们在那个 video 里看起来确实年轻了很多。

SJ: 我们确实。

KS: 你在第一个里看起来十二岁。

BG: 那就是我试图看起来的样子。

SJ: 他十二岁。

BG: 但不，一起工作很有趣。我其实有点想念一些不在身边的人。你知道，人们在这个 industry come and go。当有人留下来，他们有所有 worked 和 not worked 的事情的 context，这很好。Industry 对某些新东西 all crazy，你知道。总有"成功的公司将消失"的范式，诸如此类。有 people seeing waves and waves of that 很好，然而，当 it counted 时，冒险带入新东西。

WM: 最后一个问题然后我们去观众。

KS: 哦，不，他没有回答我们。

WM: 抱歉，什么？

SJ: 我还没有回答。

KS: 他只谈论了他的秘密 gay 婚姻，所以……

WM: 哦，我以为那是你的答案。

SJ: 不，那不是我的答案。你知道，当比尔和我第一次见面并在早期一起工作时， generally，我们都是房间里最年轻的人，对吧？单独或一起。我比他大约六个月，但大致同龄。现在，当我们在各自的公司工作时，我不知道你，但我大多数时候是房间里最年长的人。这就是为什么我喜欢在这里。

WM: 很高兴 oblige。很高兴 oblige。

SJ: 你知道，我把大多数事情看作要么是鲍勃·迪伦要么是披头士歌曲，但有那么一首披头士歌曲里有一行，"你和我的记忆比伸展在前面的路更长。"这里 clearly 是真的。

英文原文

Interview at the All Things Digital D5 Conference, Make Something Wonderful

Interview at the All Things Digital D5 Conference

"There's something exciting around the next corner."

In a rare joint interview, Steve and Microsoft chairman Bill Gates spoke with journalists Kara Swisher and Walt Mossberg onstage in May 2007.

Kara Swisher: The first question I was interested in asking is what you think each has contributed to the computer and technology industry—starting with you, Steve, for Bill, and vice versa.

Steve Jobs: Well, Bill built the first software company in the industry. And I think he built the first software company before anybody really in our industry knew what a software company was, except for these guys. And that was huge. That was really huge. And the business model that they ended up pursuing turned out to be the one that worked really well for the industry. I think the biggest thing was, Bill was really focused on software before almost anybody else had a clue that it was really the software that—

KS: Was important?

SJ: That's what I see. I mean, a lot of other things you could say, but that's the high-order bit. And I think building a company's really hard, and it requires your greatest persuasive abilities to hire the best people you can and keep them at your company and keep them working, doing the best work of their lives, hopefully. And Bill's been able to stay with it for all these years.

Walt Mossberg: Bill, how about the contribution of Steve and Apple?

Bill Gates: Well, first, I want to clarify: I'm not Fake Steve Jobs. What Steve's done is quite phenomenal, and if you look back to 1977, that Apple II computer, the idea that it would be a mass-market machine, you know, the bet that was made there by Apple uniquely. There were other people with products, but the idea that this could be an incredible, empowering phenomenon—Apple pursued that dream. Then one of the most fun things we did was [developing software for] the Macintosh, and that was so risky. People may not remember that Apple really bet the company. Lisa hadn't done that well, and some people were saying that general approach wasn't good, but the team that Steve built even within the company to pursue that, even some days it felt a little ahead of its time; I don't know if you remember that Twiggy disk drive and …

SJ: 128K.

KS: Oh, the Twiggy disk drive, yes.

BG: Steve gave a speech once, which is one of my favorites, where he talked about, in a certain sense, "We build the products that we want to use ourselves." And so he's really pursued that with incredible taste and elegance that has had a huge impact on the industry.

And his ability to always come around and figure out where that next bet should be has been phenomenal. Apple literally was failing when Steve went back and reinfused the innovation and risk-taking that have been phenomenal. So the industry's benefited immensely from his work. We've both been lucky to be part of it, but I'd say he's contributed as much as anyone.

SJ: We've also both been incredibly lucky to have had great partners that we started the companies with, and we've attracted great people. I mean, so, everything that's been done at Microsoft and at Apple has been done by just remarkable people, none of which are sitting up here today.

SJ: [When I returned to Apple,] there were too many people at Apple and in the Apple ecosystem playing the game of, for Apple to win, Microsoft has to lose. And it was clear that you didn't have to play that game because Apple wasn't going to beat Microsoft. Apple didn't have to beat Microsoft. Apple had to remember who Apple was because they'd forgotten who Apple was. So, to me, it was pretty essential to break that paradigm. And it was also important that Microsoft was the biggest software developer outside of Apple developing for the Mac. So it was just crazy what was happening at that time. And Apple was very weak, and so I called Bill up and we tried to patch things up.

BG: And since that time, we've had a team that's fairly dedicated to doing the Mac applications, and they've always been treated kind of in a unique way so that they can have a pretty special relationship with Apple. And that's worked out very well. In fact, every couple years or so, there's been something new that we've been able to do on the Mac, and it's been a great business for us.

SJ: The relationship between the Mac development team at Microsoft and Apple is a great relationship. It's one of our best developer relationships.

KS: And do you look at yourselves as rivals now? Today, as the landscape has evolved—and we'll talk about the internet landscape and everything else and other companies that have [gone] forward—but how do you look at yourselves in this landscape today?

WM: Because, I mean, you are competitors in certain ways, which is the American way, right?

KS: We watch the commercials, right?

WM: And you get annoyed at each other from time to time.

KS: Although, you know what? I have to confess, I like PC guy.

WM: Yeah, he's great.

KS: Yeah, I like him. The young guy, I want to pop him.

SJ: The art of those commercials is not to be mean, but it's actually for the guys to like each other. Thanks. PC guy is great. Got a big heart.

BG: His mother loves him.

SJ: His mother loves him.

SJ: There's a lot of things that happened that I'm sure I could have done better when I was at Apple the first time, and a lot of things that happened after I left that I thought were wrong turns, but it doesn't matter. It really doesn't matter, and you kind of got to let go of that stuff, and we are where we are. So we tend to look forward.

And, you know, one of the things I did when I got back to Apple ten years ago was I gave the museum to Stanford, and all the papers and all the old machines, and kind of cleared out the cobwebs and said, "Let's stop looking backwards here. It's all about what happens tomorrow." Because you can't look back and say, "Well, gosh, you know, I wish I hadn't have gotten fired, I wish I was there, I wish this, I wish that." It doesn't matter. And so let's go invent tomorrow rather than worrying about what happened yesterday.

KS: We're going to talk a little bit about tomorrow, but let's talk about today, the landscape of how you see the different players in the market and how you look at what's developing now. […] There are many, many companies that are becoming quite powerful. How do you look at the landscape at this moment and what's happening, especially in the internet space?

SJ: I think it's super healthy right now. I think there's a lot of young people out there building some great companies, who want to build companies, who aren't just interested in starting something and selling it to one of the big guys, but who want to build companies. And I think there's some real exciting companies getting built out there. Some next-generation stuff that, you know, some of us play catch-up with, and some of us find ways to partner with, and things like that. But there's a lot of activity out there now, wouldn't you say?

BG: Yeah, I'd say it's a healthy period. The notion of what the new form factors look like, what natural interface can do, the ability to use the cloud, the Internet, to do part of the task in a complementary way to the local experience, there's a lot of invention that the whole approach of start-ups, the existing companies who do research—we'll look back at this as one of the great periods of invention.

SJ: I think so, too. There's a lot of things that are risky right now, which is always a good sign. You can see through them, you can see to the other side and go, "Yes, this could be huge," but there's a period of risk that nobody's ever done it before.

KS: Do you have an example?

SJ: I do, but I can't say. But I can say: when you feel like that, that's a great thing. That's what keeps you coming to work in the morning, and it tells you there's something exciting around the next corner.

WM: Five years from now, what's going to be on that pocket device?

SJ: I don't know. And the reason I don't know is because I wouldn't have thought that there would have been maps on it five years ago, but something comes along, gets really popular, people love it, get used to it, and you want it on there. So people are inventing things constantly, and I think the art of it is balancing what's on there and what's not on there—the editing function. And clearly, most things you carry with you are communications devices. You want to do some entertainment with them as well, but they're primarily communications devices, and that's what they're going to be.

KS: Steve? I know you're working on something, it's going to be beautiful; we'll see it soon.

WM: And you can't talk about it.

SJ: Yeah.

WM: Bill discusses all his secret plans. You don't discuss any.

SJ: I know, it's not fair. But I think the question is a very simple one, which is how much of the really revolutionary things people are going to do in the next five years are done on the PCs, or how much of it is really focused on the post-PC devices? And there's a real temptation to focus it on the post-PC devices because it's a clean slate, and because they're more focused devices, and because they don't have the legacy of these zillions of apps that have to run in zillions of markets.

And so I think there's going to be tremendous revolution, you know, in the experiences of the post-PC devices. Now, the question is how much to do in the PCs. And I think—I'm sure Microsoft is—we're working on some really cool stuff, but some of it has to be tempered a little bit because you do have, you know, these tens of millions in our case, or hundreds of millions in Bill's case, users that are familiar with something. You know, they don't want a car with six wheels. They like the car with four wheels. They don't want to drive with a joystick. They like the steering wheel.

And so, as Bill was saying, in some cases you have to augment what exists there, and in some cases you can replace things. But I think the radical rethinking of things is going to happen in a lot of these post-PC devices.

KS: What's the greatest misunderstanding in your relationship and about each other? What would you say would be—this idea of catfight? Which one of the many?

SJ: We've kept our marriage secret for over a decade now.

KS: Canada. That trip to Canada. [Audience laughs and applauds.]

BG: I don't think either of us have anything to complain about, in general. And I know that the projects, like the Mac project, was just an incredible thing, a fun thing where we were taking a risk. We did look a lot younger in that video.

SJ: We did.

KS: You looked twelve in the first one.

BG: That's how I try and look.

SJ: He was twelve.

BG: But no, it's been fun to work together. I actually kind of miss some of the people who aren't around anymore. You know, people come and go in this industry. It's nice when somebody sticks around, and they have some context of all the things that have worked and not worked. The industry gets all crazy about some new thing, you know. There's always this paradigm of "the company's successful is going to go away" and stuff like that. It's nice to have people seeing the waves and waves of that and yet, when it counted, to take the risk to bring in something new.

WM: One last question and then we'll go to the audience.

KS: Oh, no, he didn't answer us.

WM: Sorry, what?

SJ: I haven't answered.

KS: He only talked about his secret gay marriage, so …

WM: Oh, I thought that was your answer.

SJ: No, that wasn't my answer. You know, when Bill and I first met each other and worked together in the early days, generally, we were both the youngest guys in the room, right? Individually or together. I'm about six months older than he is, but roughly the same age. And now, when we're working at our respective companies, I don't know about you, but I'm the oldest guy in the room most of the time. And that's why I love being here.

WM: Happy to oblige. Happy to oblige.

SJ: And, you know, I think of most things in life as either a Bob Dylan or a Beatles song, but there's that one line in that one Beatles song, "You and I have memories longer than the road that stretches out ahead." And that's clearly true here.

思考与洞察

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比尔·盖茨
卡拉·斯威舍